Tournament fairness

 
Annelliegram
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10,615 Posts

Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by Annelliegram on May 29, 16 12:27 PM
All very valid points, whitebutterfly54!

I agree that giving everyone a trophy for participation (children in sporting events comes to mind) is not a positive for trying to teach them about the "real world".....

I normally do not subscribe to this way of reward system. I was just trying to think of a way to remove the feature that one person doing well prevents another from succeeding.

In all ways, the Castle is an harmonious atmosphere......we all root for others to succeed, we assist in that success when we can, we offer advice and encouragement to each other, we are all working towards the same goal and we have enjoyed others successes and cried with those who have had less success.

This achievement is counter to everything the Castle stands for......it pits players against one another, it still has wrinkles that apparently cannot be ironed out......it causes players to speak in ill manner toward other players......

it just simply should not be there........In my opinion, it was a mistake to even put it there......mistakes when noticed, should be corrected when they can be.....this can be corrected. Several of us have offered several solutions......

In the meanwhile....it is truly just a game of chance.....If someone more skilled than I plays the roulette wheel at some casino and wins big, I do not feel they cheated or that they kept me from winning, per se.

I really think that everyone will get sufficient good spins to place them in the top 100 for ten times as long as they continue to play......and only playing the free rounds can merit that result.....it will just take more time for them than for more skilled players or for those who pay to play multiple times.

 

Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by whitebutterfly54 on May 29, 16 12:47 PM
That's right. I'm not talking about glitches or cheating or anything like that. Just plain old playing and luck.

There's plenty of people in real life who have been a whole lot luckier than me. Yeah, I wish some things could have worked out differently, but that's the luck of the draw in life.

I don't blame any achievement in the game for pitting players against players, players have to take responsibility for that. If there are glitches and/or cheating going on, then it's up to the devs to straighten that out. But to disparage a player or players just because they win at the Wheel is shameful.

AEG, you know way better than I do what it takes to get some of the achievements. I've been playing from the beginning and I know there are a few I'll never get. But should I yell foul because another player is able to play more than me so therefore has more inventory and more coins and can finish more DQs or Trina's Quests? Of course not, you all would think I was some kind of nut.

I've marveled at players that have reached multimillion coins. Certainly, playing the quests are a whole lot easier with millions of coins. So is it unfair that some have millions and I don't? Of course, not. I'll never be there. Do I wish the Tournament Wheel would be kinder to me? Sure, I do. But I don't begrudge players, who play fairly, winning diamonds. That's simply the luck of the draw.

Every gambling game is a game of chance. Be it dice, or cards or roulette. That means by the luck of the draw, or the programming of an algorithm, some will win and some will lose.

I am human, however, and it would be nice if the Wheel were to smile on me the next time I played. Couldn't hurt to talk nice to it, could it?

 
TiramaSue
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6,953 Posts

Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by TiramaSue on May 29, 16 1:26 PM
Annelliegram wrote:If the achievement were changed to "participation in tournament" -- then no one would be depriving anyone of anything and those who actually win some diamonds would be pleased as punch to get them.....no guilt trip.


How about if the achievement was changed to 'score x amount of points in a tournament"? If 500 players manage to reach the threshold score, then 500 players would get credit for the achievement. And participation by those who have already earned the kitty wouldn't adversely affect those who haven't.

 
FudgeChi
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2,380 Posts

Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by FudgeChi on May 29, 16 1:45 PM
TiramaSue wrote:
Annelliegram wrote:If the achievement were changed to "participation in tournament" -- then no one would be depriving anyone of anything and those who actually win some diamonds would be pleased as punch to get them.....no guilt trip.


How about if the achievement was changed to 'score x amount of points in a tournament"? If 500 players manage to reach the threshold score, then 500 players would get credit for the achievement. And participation by those who have already earned the kitty wouldn't adversely affect those who haven't.


I'm not playing MC but still read the forum now and again. That's a GREAT idea, TiramaSue

The main fault by the Devs, IMO, was to introduce the achievement knowing the glitch was there, and it's still there.

 
Annelliegram
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10,615 Posts

Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by Annelliegram on May 29, 16 1:54 PM
Indeed, TiramaSue......you have hit upon a most wonderous resolution!!!!!

It could still be an achievement to be earned, in some way.....

It would not prevent others from meeting the goal/achievement......

Everyone would get an equal chance during each tournament to achieve the goal....


and I agree with FudgeChi (oh, how wonderful to see you posting/participating/visiting us!!!!!!) but I would truncate the last part of her statement to read simply: "The main fault by the Devs, IMO, was to introduce the achievement"

 
Annelliegram
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10,615 Posts

Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by Annelliegram on May 29, 16 3:19 PM
Hmmmm.....been thinking more about TiramaSue's to score X amount of points in a tournament......

There are different scoring methods in the different platforms....

PC has up to 5000 bonus points added to each room (for a total possible 25,000)....
iPad and Kindle have no bonus points added, so their tournament scores are typically a lot lower....

To say get 140,000 points in a tournament would be relatively easy for a PC player compared to an iPad player.......

Not sure the Devs could somehow separate out which platform is being played for each game ......

Maybe just an achievement to earn diamonds from a tournament a certain number of times......many of us will occasionally earn/get that one diamond ..... perhaps that would be a better solution????? Comments anyone?

 
TiramaSue
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6,953 Posts

Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by TiramaSue on May 29, 16 4:05 PM
Annelliegram wrote:Hmmmm.....been thinking more about TiramaSue's to score X amount of points in a tournament......

There are different scoring methods in the different platforms....

PC has up to 5000 bonus points added to each room (for a total possible 25,000)....
iPad and Kindle have no bonus points added, so their tournament scores are typically a lot lower....

To say get 140,000 points in a tournament would be relatively easy for a PC player compared to an iPad player.......

Not sure the Devs could somehow separate out which platform is being played for each game ......

Maybe just an achievement to earn diamonds from a tournament a certain number of times......many of us will occasionally earn/get that one diamond ..... perhaps that would be a better solution????? Comments anyone?


Each platform has its own tournaments. MC iOS is an entirely separate game from MC PC and MC Android. So there would be no problem if each platform's point target was different.

 
TiramaSue
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Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by TiramaSue on May 29, 16 4:16 PM
whitebutterfly54 wrote:

So how is this any different from throwing double 6s for 36 times, maybe we should change the dice game so you get the achievement just for participating. Or getting the eggs on the Fortune Wheel, how fair is that if someone has millions of coins to spend versus someone who doesn't? Or getting the achievement for winning inventory items in dice?



The difference is that there is no finite number of people who can throw double sixes or land on an egg each day. Even if I had billions of coins to spend on the fortune wheel and billions of diamonds to use to keep the dice table perpetually open, no matter how many eggs and double 6s I earn, I can't prevent anybody else from also winning eggs or rolling double 6s.


 

Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by whitebutterfly54 on May 29, 16 4:25 PM
But see, I think nothing prevents that in the tournaments. Like I said before, glitches and cheating aside, how can anyone prevent me from winning the tournament just because they entered?

It's a game of chance, everyone has a chance to get a good score and/or find tokens and/or get good spins on the Wheel. There have been players who have posted that they've had low scores, good percentages and made it into the top 100. So no one prevented them from making it.

If someone has an unfair advantage that enables them to consistently score high just to hoard diamonds, that's a different matter altogether. I just think we all have the same chance to win, eventually.

 
TiramaSue
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Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by TiramaSue on May 29, 16 5:08 PM
whitebutterfly54 wrote:But see, I think nothing prevents that in the tournaments. Like I said before, glitches and cheating aside, how can anyone prevent me from winning the tournament just because they entered?

It's a game of chance, everyone has a chance to get a good score and/or find tokens and/or get good spins on the Wheel. There have been players who have posted that they've had low scores, good percentages and made it into the top 100. So no one prevented them from making it.

If someone has an unfair advantage that enables them to consistently score high just to hoard diamonds, that's a different matter altogether. I just think we all have the same chance to win, eventually.


The game doesn't limit how many people can roll double 6's or land on an egg each day, so hypothetically, everybody playing can do those things each day. There are only 3 tournaments per day, so a maximum of 300 people can make progress on the tournament achievement each day. The more people playing in each tournament, the less likely any specific individual is to earn one of those places.

I don't know how to explain it any better. But if I finished in the 101st place, I might be thinking "If only somebody who finished ahead a me hadn't of played..."


The tournament achievement is the ONLY achievement earned by beating other people rather than achieving a predefined result. Some days 200,000 points is enough to get you into the Top 100 and make progress towards the achievement. Other times, a player only needs 190,000 points. Where is the fairness in that?

Some tournaments, because of the time they are held, attract 1,000 entries. So a person only has to beat 90% of the other players to get into the Top 100. Other tournaments attract 1500 players, and consequently to get into the Top 100, a player must beat 93.3% of the other players. The odds are even worse in an iOS tournament.

Will changing the tournament from "Finish in the Top 100" to "Score x amount of points or better" make everybody happy? Doubt it, but it would probably make less people unhappy. And it's a relatively easy programming change to make.


 
dianatron
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Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by dianatron on May 29, 16 5:17 PM
On a 'lighter' note, wot about this for ignorance, I didn't even realize that it was an achievement, and Ive been playing for 2yrs! granted, I learned early on that it wasn't for me, as I have never won a raffle in my life, so I'm sure I wouldn't win in this! Lets face it, u r lucky or u r not, that's life, and the same goes for this. Also, I realized that I'm not quick enough, so gave up the tourney ages ago(probably why I didn't know it was an achievement!)Pity really, I would have loved to have that 'kitty' Hey-Ho

Edited on 05/29/2016 at 5:20:49 PM PST


 

Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by whitebutterfly54 on May 29, 16 5:42 PM
TS, I understand what the argument is for changing the tournaments. I get it that some would prefer those that have already won the cat to bow out to leave an opening for someone else. Or give the non-cat owners their own tournament. I totally understand about the limited spots available for winning. I get all the arguments...I just don't agree with them.

The devs don't want to spoon feed every achievement to us. An achievement is something to be achieved. Scoring "x" number of points, unless it's a substantial number of points, wouldn't be very difficult.

There is inherent unfairness in the game; whether it be the dice table, fortune wheel, crafting wheels, etc. I understand that the tournament pits player against player...but the deciding factor is always random....the wheel. Besides the fact that we're actually playing against each other, look at the double 6s achievement. Look at how many players have posted about getting that achievement fairly easily...throwing double 6s a lot. Me, I've got a handful.

As far as the odds, the same can be true about any game of chance. I have better odds of winning the Lottery if only 1,000 people play than 5,000. That's why it's called a game of chance.

Maybe they'll fix it somehow to everyone's liking...just look at the Eccentric Achievement. Everyone complained that it was impossible to get that achievement if eggs didn't even show up on the wheel, now there's an egg every day.

 
TiramaSue
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6,953 Posts

Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by TiramaSue on May 29, 16 6:14 PM
whitebutterfly54 wrote:

The devs don't want to spoon feed every achievement to us. An achievement is something to be achieved. Scoring "x" number of points, unless it's a substantial number of points, wouldn't be very difficult.

.


Well, I wouldn't set the number as low as Annelliegram suggested. I would imagine the developers would pick something close to what has been needed to get into the Top 100 the past month or so.

So people would still have to work to earn the achievement, but it would put the achievement on the same footing as every other achievement: player vs game rather than player vs player.

 
Theorem
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2,290 Posts

Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by Theorem on May 30, 16 7:30 AM
whitebutterfly54 wrote: [...] I have better odds of winning the Lottery if only 1,000 people play than 5,000. [...].


Mmhh, nope! But the more people play, the higher the risk is that you'd have to share your gain! (at least if your lottery works as the ones we have here!)



Edited on 05/30/2016 at 7:33:21 AM PST


 

Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by empress2shakes on May 30, 16 12:25 PM
I am with White Butterfly 54 on this issue....not everyone deserves a trophy and that is true in real life as well... earn it people! Quit bellyaching.. play the tourney and enjoy it or don't, but do quit complaining about it...No I do not have the kitty and have actually only placed twice in the top 100 since they added the challenge, but that is not anyone elses fault! That was the luck of the spins, nothing more! players who have achieved the kitty should not have to quit playing tourneys just so you may have a chance... Get over yourselves...yes I cuss the wheel, wish there were 3 tokens in each room, but very rarely.. wish I had 5 spins instead of one.... but I do not always win on slot machines at the casino either..but if I do, it is my lucky day!!!

 

Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by anythingred on May 30, 16 10:49 PM
I just want to add some encouragement to the discussion.
I,too, have gnashed my teeth over the 1 or 2 chips and 10% spins, however twice in the last few days, I have hit the top 10. I found that my best score was always my first round as the wheel would spin 30, 40 and occasionally 50 %. But the subsequent rounds were 10 and an occasional 20%.
But today it was my fifth round that gave out four 40%s. My husband and kids were excited for me as well since they had heard the curses at the 10%s. So don't be disheartened keep going at it and you will get there. I'll get the kitty yet!

anything red

 
12earth45
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885 Posts

Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by 12earth45 on May 30, 16 11:49 PM
Dear anythingred!

congratulations on your tournament win!
I know it was well deserved!

I Have the kitty after much gnashing of the teeth!

Now, Only entered the tournament occasionally to play, placed anywhere from 300's to thousands, with all the discussions about the tourney, I thought I would try for a week to play in at least two tournaments a day, just to see what would happen.
Only free, and not with the lighting fast , scattered gun approach, just old fashion clicking, following the HOS list.
Play on iPad.

Results: last Sunday, was in top 200, with I think 3 good spins, did not pay attention, as was just playing for fun.
Rest of week, paid attention. Noted a change in how many tokens showed up. Definitely a lot less than before. Use to find 12 to 15 more frequently, found only 7-8, more often.
Mostly 10%, occasionally a 40 or 50 in the mix, only a couple of 0.

Today with last tourney of the day, found more 12 chips, more 40-50 on the wheel than I ever had, every entry for that tournament was like this.! (Played since they started) and was in top 100.

I think it is the number of times you play a tournament, that you will be in the top 100.
As a moderate , impatient player, I paid in prior, to play many, many times in a tourney, to reach top 100.

So all, keep on trying, it will happen!

Now if I could just roll a double six in my dice game........

Crystal ; P


 
jack7242
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721 Posts

Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by jack7242 on May 31, 16 5:33 PM
In two separate tournaments today, my highest score did not show up, in fact on the tournament just closed, not only did the score not appear, the tournament froze and I had to exit the game to unfreeze it, only to discover that the score had not been updated.

Neither score would have seen me anywhere near the top of the board, but twice in one day would appear to indicate that the problem is escalating.

 
MiniCleo
Herring
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330 Posts

Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by MiniCleo on May 31, 16 7:40 PM
What if there were no chips & no wheel? Then the winners would be based on skill alone.

The problem with that is that the same people would win all the time. But it was a good idea for a fleeting moment.

The only way around it would be to bump out the folks who've won X number of times. And then, maybe only for a certain amount of tourneys. That doesn't seem fair though. And a million ways to get around it.

Can you tell I'm writing "out loud"? lol I am just throwing things out to see if anything sticks. So far, I don't think I'm having much luck.

I've made it to the top 100 once or twice & that was during the 5am central time tourney when not as many play. I have insomnia, so if I'm alert, I'll give the 5ams a try.

At some point, there will be NO tourneys 'cos there is so much friction over them. Wait & see!

MiniCleo / Cleo in the Castle

 
mamarose1900
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2,190 Posts

Re:Tournament fairness

[Post New]by mamarose1900 on Jun 1, 16 9:08 AM
I disagree with White Butterfly. Here's why:

This is not real life. It's a game. I play for fun and relaxation. Part of that fun for me is getting all of the achievements. But the tournament achievement is not fun to play because it's more stacked against us than the "house ultimately wins" games in Vegas. It's stressful because it's got multiple levels of chance that have to all run your way-the number of chips, your spins on the wheel, and how many people are playing. I've been in the top 115 5 times. But in the top 100 only once. I've won one diamond 3 or 4 times. I don't care about winning diamonds. I do want the achievement. I don't want getting it to be stressful. I have enough stress in my life. I don't need my recreation to add more.

Other than personal preference for a specific type of game play, there's no intrinsic reason the achievement should be dependent on winning. That was a decision the developers made. I think it was a bad one. It's created a lot of unhappiness, which is not a good thing if you want people to continue playing and recommending the game to other people.

I think that the achievement should be a separate thing from winning diamonds. Winning diamonds is the perfect reward for those of you who want to compete and try to get to the top. Winning diamonds is the perfect reward because you "earn" more by getting a higher score. And because you thrive on competition, it's fun for you, not stressful.

The achievement should be the reward for those of us who don't care about competing, being at the top, or winning diamonds. For the more casual player making that achievement about how many times you played would be perfect. Doing two different reward styles is a way to accommodate both types of playing styles, which would balance the tournament and encourage more people to play. Knowing that, even if you don't win diamonds, you'll accomplish something-points toward the achievement, would make it fun for the more casual player, those of us who are taking a relaxing break from real life and don't particularly want our games to reflect the stressors that real life brings.

Have fun stormin' the castle!





 
 
 
 
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